Sunday, September 24, 2006

Under God = Bullshit

So I went to this Singles meetup on Friday night. I'll keep most of this short. In a nutshell, it started with 16 people, boiled down to 6 who went to a different bar, which boiled down to myself, this other guy and this chick. Ok, so we had been drinking for about the past 5 hours so we were relaxed, to be sure. I think we started to talk about immigration and that turned into a conversation about religion. It turns out the chick that was there was a Christain, which in itself isn't a problem. As I've expressed before I believe belief is very personal and I don't hold a person's personal belief against's when it goes outside of the personal and starts to be pushed upon others that I have the issue.

Ok, so she was pretty cool in that she didn't shove religion down my throat, etc. However, we got into one of the biggest mythes that have been shoved down American's collective throat for a long long time: that the US was founded as a Christian nation. What a load of shit.

1) God is not mentioned in the Consitution, not once. Read it. It was on purpose.
2) The majority of the founders believed in deism and freemasonry rather than Christianity.
3) 'Under God' was not put into the Pledge of Allegence until 1954. This was done as propaganda during the Cold War since everyone knows the commies were Goddless.
4) 'In God We Trust' was not added to money until the Civil War.

So how does any of that equate into the country being founded as a Christain nation? And on top of that, if it was founded as such a nation explain the explicit separation of Church and State. This whole thing is simply an attempt to muddle the waters and it's fricken annoying.

The chick I was arguing with was adament that Under God was in the Consitituion and that is was always in the Pledge, etc. That is what pisses off, lack of critical thinking. Why would you by that shit? Hopefully she looks it up like she said she would. Can't wait to talk to her next time. :)

Anyway, here is more for your reading pleasure if you are curious about the facts.


Silent Joe said...

If americans would take religion out of the equation, nobody could stop us.

CMS said...

Way to go easy on the first meeting.

You'll either have a torrid romance or never hear from her again.

I'll go ahead and step in it on this one. People need a unified belief system in order to function as a unit. think of it as an organization's mission statement. People who believe in and ascribe themselves to the mission generally perform better. Those who work for the paycheck generally don't care for the well being of the organization, its workers, or those it helps. They're concern is self serving #1.

Take religion totally out of the American equation would remove what a good percentage of people believe in it and give strength to those whose mission is simply to be against it.

I'll speak to our ( conservative Christian faculty)history teacher about the creation of the American documents, but it is my understanding that Diests would be accurate in describing the majority of the founding fathers. Does that make the US a Christian nation, no. Could it make us a God/ creator honoring/fearing nation? Maybe.

If we take religion totally out of the equation, maybe no one could stop us. But I bet no one could start us either. We'd be too busy running in more different directions looking for moral direction, sound guidance and leadership.

Just a thought.

Silent Joe said...

No, if religion is taken out of the equation that leaves our government only. If people would spend as much time helping to fix our country as they do going to church and praying, our country would be even stronger. When they start putting there religious beliefs in front of what will grow this country, it creates seperation and division. Americans as a whole need to keep religion out of it and work for the whole of the nation. In your example of paycheck, religion here is the paycheck and USA is the organization.


Antijen said...


Wow, you will never get a date. :p

But you're right. Let people believe in whatever flying pasta monster they choose, but don't let that bleed over into politics. Ever.

CMS said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
CMS said...

-sorry for the delete. Had a typo :-(

:-) Flying pasta monster? It think I made one of those for dinner tonight.

I think what is getting confused here are a nation's ethics with its religions.

Opinion - should religious worship and government be separate? Yeah, I think so. You shouldn't serve two gods - as paraphrased from the Bible. If you want a reference, you'll have to wait.

Can a society define it's ethics without some association to some religion? - Nope, I don't think so.

Can you use ethics derived from religious sources in non religious settings? I'd hope so.

But SJ, if the paycheck is your religion, I hope you are never jobless, therefore godless. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the want of it is. Now, if people went back to the Marxist ideal of doing as they are able and receiving what was needed.... hmm, there's a concept. But, in the end, what destroys governments, as well as many other things, is self- service and greed. Looking out for #1, if you will.

If Americans truly helped to help others, in its interior and exterior, without a strong drive for the economic kickback, and learned to live within its means, I don't think there'd have to be this much trauma. This country, I feel, has some ethics that endorse the parts of the whole and not the sum of the parts.

Can't we discuss cartoons or something? :-)

Ryan said...

My Internet connection goes out for a night and see what i miss?

I don't think I was arguing that their should be no religion, I was arguing that it doesn't have a place in this government as we were setup with a Freedom Of Religion, to take one above others throws that concept out the door. The myth I was arguing with this woman about was that this country was founded as a Christain nation, as in all religions are equal before the law but Christainity is more equal than the rest. Bullshit. That doesn't mean no religion, it just means it shouldn't be in government.

And regarding your opinion regarding the ability to define ethics outside of religion...I think we found a good debate topic. I'll post it. :)